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Mark Catalina 27 AZ
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Mark Catalina 27 AZ

Posts : 165
Sailboat : Catalina 27
Male Join date : 2012-01-09
Job/hobbies : Rock Quarry President, Sailing, Family

Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptyThu May 03, 2012 6:11 pm

Subject: Jake, requesting more advice on keel cable replacement

Thanks for your earlier post.

This is all completely foreign to me so please bear with me.

Posting it on CL needing a repair is bringing out all the friggin' loonies with 6,000 questions. Jeez people I'll fix it myself!

Used your link to order thimble and clamps...$16 with shipping.

You said to use 7x19 cable but that CMs use 3/16" cable

The thimble and clamp kit I ordered from the link you sent me is for a 3/16" cable.

So, probably should just buy 3/16" cable for a proper fit or will this "7x19" measurement of whihc I've never heard, be what I should order?

You said 10' - 12' for the cable length. The cable I pulled off the boat was 16" with about 6 or 10 rotations of extra cable on the keel crank spool...too much.

So, 12' should truly be fine, correct?

OK, the thimble is placed in the keel hole so the cable is protected, right?

The cable clamp instructions on the site you gave me says to torque the clamps to 7.5 pounds and fold the cable at least 3 and 3/4" inches. That's it? For a 600 pound keel? Really? I would not have thought to use a torque wrench, just to tighten the cable clamp as tight as I could without damaging the cable. But, 2 clamps ought to do it.

I'm just going to use 2 web straps with my Volvo L120 front end loader. It can lift 7 tons vertically.

So, in theory, if I tighten the cable to the winch, spool on a few loops, feed the tag end through the cable hole, place the thimble in the hole, run the right size cable through and nestled it in the 3/16" thimble, leave the tag end at least 3 3/4" long, and place 2 clamps with the threads pointing away from the lifting portion of the cable, tighten the 2 clamps 2 7.5 pounds, take up the slack and crank the keel back up into the trunk, I should be good to go?

Still trying to get my head around who gets to stay in the boat to feed the cable when the boat is lifted and then crank it up when the cable is secured...and who gets to put the cable on under the lifted boat. Rolling Eyes

Thanks for indulging my need to know every step.

Mark



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Mark Cat27 AZ Cool

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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptyFri May 04, 2012 12:46 am

Okay...let me tackle these one at a time.
The SIZE of the cable should be 3/16".
The TYPE of cable you should use is 7x19 strands. Here is a webpage that clarifies what the different types are.

http://www.sailingservices.com/standrigging/prod_1x19wire.htm

Basically, 7x19 is very flexible but has a lower breaking strength. This type of wire should be used for applications like our keel cables because it can bend around the spool of your winch and the sheave without damaging the cable. You can also use for adjustable backstay tensioners on lighter boats.

1x19 cable is more rigid and is the type we use for our rigging to hold up our masts. It doesn't bend as easily, it has a much higher breaking strength doesn't stretch. This wire would crease and fail trying to bend it around the sheave and winch drum.

As for torquing the nuts on the clamps...I just tightened mine as good as I could with a wrench and I have not had any issues. I have had the same clamps for three years. I also have not given 3 3/4" for the bend. I gave it less because when I made it longer, I could not get the keel all the way up with such a long tail.

You are correct about the thimble. It will prevent the very flexible 7x19 cable from creasing and breaking by giving it a nice bend to form around.

I am really just guessing on the length. I know that the bottom of my keel is 5 1/2' below the waterline when it is all the way down. Add a few wraps around the drum and I can't imagine 12' shouldn't be plenty.
Here is a picture of my boat on stands. I have highlighted the cable in red. You can see how much cable is below the waterline.

Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Slappy11

So when you are lifting the boat. Clippers are relatively flat and lift very well with a travel lift. A marine travel lift has very wide straps. I am not sure how wide the straps are you will be using but here is an idea to increase the safety of your lift. Especially since you will need to be under the boat.

The safest way would be to lift the boat, move the trailer forward and set the boat back onto the trailer a few feet back allowing the keel to rest on the ground. That will give you plenty of room to do the repair. If you do it this way, remember that you have shifted the weight to the back of the trailer and it will want to tilt back so make sure you have the trailer hooked to your truck for weight at the tongue and it will not be an issue.

Another option is to tie the lifting straps together so they will not slip apart.
Here is a picture of my clipper in the slings. I have added a red line representing a strap or rope you could use to tie the straps together so you can see what I mean.

Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Slappy12

I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any more questions. I have lifted my clipper several times and I have repaired that cable 3 times at least since I bought my little Slappy.

Good luck!
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Gary
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Gary

Posts : 1310
Sailboat : Pair CM 32's Aft Cabin Ketch & Aft Cockpit
Male Birthday : 1956-10-17
Join date : 2011-12-28
Age : 63
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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptyFri May 04, 2012 1:15 am

Mark, be careful! We do not need a widow out sailing that new sailboat all by herself!

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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Rywt5710
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Mark Catalina 27 AZ
Lifetime Member
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Mark Catalina 27 AZ

Posts : 165
Sailboat : Catalina 27
Male Join date : 2012-01-09
Job/hobbies : Rock Quarry President, Sailing, Family

Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: wow. thank you, jake   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptyFri May 04, 2012 5:24 am

I sincerely appreciate your reply amd your level of detail. I now fully understand it and can do it myself or ggive these printed instructions to a buyer coming over this afternoon. He seems unconcerned about the task. Many sincere thanks for the pics and redline illustration. This is also valuable for the forum archive.
you are a top line guy.
mark

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Mark Catalina 27 AZ
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Mark Catalina 27 AZ

Posts : 165
Sailboat : Catalina 27
Male Join date : 2012-01-09
Job/hobbies : Rock Quarry President, Sailing, Family

Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: A bit more about Jake's assistance...   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptySat May 05, 2012 12:55 pm

Jake, thanks again. Your detail, I copied and pasted and printed. I gave it to a prospective buyer sho has placed a deposit on her and, partially as a result of how wimple you made it seem, he agreed to buy here when his bank opens on Monday. I purchased the cable, exactly as you suggested, at Home Depot. So, I have the cable and the thimble and clamps are on order. You certainly contributed to me getting my boat sold to a nice couple who will care for her and sail her alot in AZ and Colorado. Thanks again!
Mark

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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptySat May 05, 2012 2:09 pm

Anytime.

I worked at a boat yard just long enough to see my share of boat repairs gone bad. There are far too many Do It Yourselfers who have good intentions and limited budgets but lack the knowledge to get the job done right. I was one of them myself. I look back at some of the things I did to my boat (before I knew what I was doing) and cringe just a little.

Let's just say that if I took care of my kids as well as I used to take care of my boat, I'd have supervised visitation only. I decided last year to do everything I can to help end boat abuse. I am currently documenting repairs and hope to build a catalog of DIY training videos.

I'll keep you all updated on the progress.

In the meantime, keep asking and I will do what I can to help find solutions.
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Mark Catalina 27 AZ
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Mark Catalina 27 AZ

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Sailboat : Catalina 27
Male Join date : 2012-01-09
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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: sailboat shop guy says the 2 clamps i ordered...   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptySat May 05, 2012 2:13 pm

...will not work. Said they will get wedged...not enough room for cable, keel, clamps in trunk. Says I must use this dual loop thing with a special crimping tool. What is your take on his take?

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Mark Cat27 AZ Cool

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Gary
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Male Birthday : 1956-10-17
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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptySat May 05, 2012 2:46 pm

As a supplement to what Jake is helping you with, did you see the graphs Greg did on the subject?

I have several times invited Greg over, maybe some of you guys should also ask him to join. Someone that knows him already.

Here is a link to his work on the subject, very good details.

http://gregscm26keelstuff.shutterfly.com/

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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Rywt5710
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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptySat May 05, 2012 6:51 pm

I actually like Greg's idea for attaching the keel cable. It doesn't have a tail at all and will allow the keel to snug firmly into its trunk. It does, however, reqiure to have the ball swaged onto your cable. That takes a special tool.

In my case, I had an issue with my attachment point on the keel. It had chafed almost through over the years and just a sliver of steel was holding my keel up. I had my metal fab guy at work take a look at it and made a suggestion to cut the hole out and add a couple thick plates of stainless steel on either side. Allowing me to drill a new hole. Once I attached the plates he made for me I realized it made the keel too thick and it would no longer fit into the trunk so I scrapped that idea. Unfortunately I was in a hurry to get my boat in the water for the racing season so I took a shortcut. I drilled a new hole below my notch and attached the cable in a hurry.

Here is a pic of that repair:

Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Keel_c10

Notice in the picture that I have one re-usable clamp to attache the cable. Although this is a good example of what NOT to do ( I was in a hurry). This one clamp raised and lowered my keel all season long.

After the season when I had more time I fixed the problem for good.
I removed the keel completely and removed all the paint and rust. I wire brushed it and used a chemical to convert any remaining rust into iron. I then epoxy coated the entire keel (wire brushing the epoxy into the steel) and then faired the keel.

I cut a bigger notch where the keel attaches and drilled a hole down the center. I then added an eye bolt (I used red lock tight to secure it) and then filled in the remainder of the cut away with thickened epoxy. I wish I would have taken pics of this and I will next time I have her out of water. In the meantime, this should give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Keel_c11

What does all this have to do with Mark's issue?

My keel is on year two now with that one clamp tightened with a wrench leaving barely any tale.
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Mark Catalina 27 AZ
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Mark Catalina 27 AZ

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Sailboat : Catalina 27
Male Join date : 2012-01-09
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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: the new owner may find this of interest...   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptySat May 05, 2012 7:00 pm

I will share with him all that you have shared with me. Should work just fine. He will just need to lift it safely. After that it seems a piece of cake. I will start it for him tomoroow by bolting the new cable to the winch, installing the winch again and attempting to feed the other end through the keel cable tube. I also will do some other minor things to help him along...nice guy very excited about learning sailing. He and his wife laughed about his new sickness/affliction.

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Triticum
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Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers EmptySat Oct 27, 2012 11:58 pm

I bought a CM26 this summer knowing that the keel cable was gone. I pryed her keel off the trailer and grounded her up in shallow water. I took a scuba tank and wedged myself between the bottom of the ship and the shallow gravel bottom and pulled the cable out ( with help from above) and reattached the cable to the keel underwater. The winch now works and I was able to move her off the beach once the keep was halfway up. Don't try this when there is a big tide swing!

The biggest downside was dropping one of the clamps and it vanishing into the gravel. Salt water is also hard on tools so they got a careful wash and a coat of WD40.
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PostSubject: Re: Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers   Jake, my keel cable Qs for the world to see and all learn from your answers Empty

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